"Focus on Improvement" feat. Sabeen Sheikh

[00:00:00] and I think that kindness is like, it's a two way street. It's not just like the person giving you

[00:00:05] feedback, but it also has to be internal. Like just now, a second ago when you lost your frame of

[00:00:10] thought, your go-to was to say sorry. You don't owe me an apology for that. Like you don't,

[00:00:16] and but you're putting this thing around it like that you almost did something wrong because

[00:00:19] you forgot for a second what to say. But that's human. That's conversations. Like why not

[00:00:26] be more inclined to be like, hold on. I lost my frame of thought. Like give me a second,

[00:00:30] right? Just hold on. Bear with me for a second. But we internalized like, oh, I'm making a mistake.

[00:00:36] I need to apologize to you because I'm not saying what I wanted to say or I'm not clear on what

[00:00:42] I want to say. That's okay. Hey everyone. Welcome back to the Intelligent Conversations

[00:00:56] podcast. Today I have the honor to learn from Sabine Shaikh. Sabine is an educator at

[00:01:02] the University of Maryland and teaches students how to communicate better in their professional

[00:01:07] and personal lives. Sabine has helped students overcome that fear of public speaking, which

[00:01:13] is the second most feared thing to do in the United States, which blows my mind by the way.

[00:01:20] Sabine, this conversation with Sabine was just very insightful. I got to learn a lot

[00:01:25] that helped me improve my communication skills as well and also recognize, you know,

[00:01:32] areas for improvement and also things I am doing well at. It's just the conversation I had

[00:01:37] with Sabine was awesome. She also gave us ways on how we can help others improve their

[00:01:44] communication with each other as well. I don't want to spoil any of the rest of the show,

[00:01:50] but without further ado, let's welcome Sabine Shaikh to the show. I'm excited to have you on

[00:01:56] today. There's three things I would say that I do this show for. Number one, I try to keep

[00:02:02] the audience in mind. Number two, I hope you have a great experience. And number three,

[00:02:07] and this is my selfish reason, I just get to learn from fascinating people. So thank you

[00:02:11] for taking the time to come on today. Well, thank you for having me. I appreciate

[00:02:16] the opportunity. And like you, I love learning. And so your podcast is one of those awesome

[00:02:22] things where these casual conversations, you just manage to have this like aha moment.

[00:02:27] And it's great because, you know, like we live in this fast-paced world where

[00:02:31] information is constantly coming at us. And there's a lot to learn at every age. And so

[00:02:37] these types of mechanisms, like simple, easy to listen to podcasts are so great for

[00:02:43] understanding everything. So thank you. No, I'm glad to have you on. It's,

[00:02:49] I mean, just communication in general. That's, I actually just had someone on

[00:02:54] that talked about that and kind of more of the styles of communication. I don't know

[00:02:58] if you're familiar with that, but as you can tell, like I kind of go in cycles. It's

[00:03:05] like, all right, man, I want to improve this aspect. So it's fun. So how did you get into

[00:03:14] communication and all that? And now teaching it is my question.

[00:03:20] So I started with research. I actually used to work for like the graduate management

[00:03:25] admission council who was in charge of the GMAT exam. And I would do a lot of research

[00:03:30] and a lot of qualitative research where I was paying close attention to how people react to

[00:03:35] different products and services. And became really interested in like testing anxiety.

[00:03:42] And then that kind of led me to just being interested in anxiety in general and just like

[00:03:47] learning how to read people and the behavioral science behind why we say the things that we say

[00:03:54] and what compels us to like not say certain things. And then I was also in a lot of

[00:04:00] positions where I was presenting this research and honing my own communication skills.

[00:04:06] And I started noticing even for myself, when I initially started presenting a lot of research,

[00:04:12] I was getting really anxious and I never had that before. Like I feel like I grew up with

[00:04:18] a lot of attention. I was always center stage and never was afraid of having eyes on me

[00:04:24] until I started doing research orientation. And then I was just like, I need to figure this out.

[00:04:29] Like why am I feeling this way? And that actually took me right into I think other people

[00:04:35] might feel this way. Let me see if I can get more involved in this community. And now

[00:04:41] like I mean, I've taught various communication courses at the college level. I've done

[00:04:45] communication, family dynamics, intercultural. But for the past seven, no, 10 years,

[00:04:53] I've just been focusing on the public speaking and principles of oral communication.

[00:04:58] That's great.

[00:05:01] At all. I've had students pass out. They stood up, present and literally fainted.

[00:05:07] I've had students come up and completely blank and be like, I can't do this and I need to

[00:05:12] sit down. And you know, like it's substantiated through research. It's the second most feared

[00:05:20] thing in America. Number one is heights. Number two is public speaking.

[00:05:25] Dang. Not even death, right?

[00:05:29] No, people are more afraid of public speaking than the death. Yeah,

[00:05:34] like they'd rather be in the coffin than give the eulogy.

[00:05:41] That's true, right?

[00:05:42] Yeah, it's a problem because it should not be to that level. But it's and I understand,

[00:05:50] we are as a society, your instinct kicks in where survival instincts kick in if you're

[00:05:56] worried about rejection or judgment, right? You feel like you can't be in those situations

[00:06:01] and you want to get out of there. And I think that has a deep connection to like,

[00:06:05] is my audience going to think I'm dumb? I'm actually dumb. And then you go through it

[00:06:11] and something happens where you make a mistake and you're like, yeah, I'm done.

[00:06:15] Yeah.

[00:06:16] And it's a vicious cycle.

[00:06:18] So I guess kind of how you break out of that cycle because I find even just sometimes,

[00:06:23] right? I mean, when we hang out with friends or whatever, maybe, right,

[00:06:26] even just casual settings, it may just be like you say something like that maybe did not land

[00:06:32] the way I wanted to. How do you kind of, I guess, break that cycle? Maybe either correct it or,

[00:06:38] you know, improve it so that maybe it doesn't happen again.

[00:06:41] Well, I think first we need to understand why are we second guessing ourselves in the

[00:06:45] first place? Like it's so why isn't it just OK to like fumble on your words and be like,

[00:06:51] oh, that wasn't the right thing to say. Here's what I meant. And like, fix it.

[00:06:54] Even if it's like whether it's in casual conversations or at a speech in front of

[00:06:58] an audience of 30 to 100 people, like it does. I think the stakes that we put around these

[00:07:04] conversations has a lot to do with how we perceive it. Right. And a casual conversation

[00:07:08] with a one on one friend. If you say something and you say it incorrectly,

[00:07:13] you can laugh about it and casually fix it. But why can't we do have that same protocol

[00:07:18] in a more professional or higher stakes situation where there's a lot of people watching you?

[00:07:23] You're still human being. It's OK to make mistakes. And I think everybody thinks like

[00:07:28] you just can't mess up if you're talking to a group of people. And especially if

[00:07:32] it's like in a professional setting where it's a presentation, whether it's in the

[00:07:35] classroom or at a conference, you absolutely don't you can't mess up.

[00:07:40] And that's the narrative. And that's a problem because that's causing the anxiety.

[00:07:46] You know, like if I am not allowed to make a mistake, how can I do this and feel good

[00:07:51] about it? Because I'm going to make a mistake. You know, that's that's true.

[00:07:54] Almost just embrace that you're going to make mistakes in the presentation.

[00:07:58] You could even I guess make it part of your style to like, oh, there's another mistake.

[00:08:03] Right. And yeah, like own it like self deprecating humor tends to make people

[00:08:07] a little bit more uncomfortable. So you don't want to like call out on it every time.

[00:08:11] But there's also like research that shows that when we engage in like negative self talk,

[00:08:17] it almost becomes like a self fulfilling prophecy. And so I see with a lot of students,

[00:08:20] too, like if they had one public speaking experience that didn't go well,

[00:08:24] like either they messed up or they got a bad grade because something didn't go right.

[00:08:28] That almost forms like this trauma in their minds. So now they're telling themselves

[00:08:33] they're not capable of doing it. And then when you're tasked with doing it,

[00:08:37] because you've been telling yourself, I'm not good at this, I can't talk in front of people,

[00:08:41] everyone's going to be judging me. And you're constantly engaging in that vicious cycle of

[00:08:46] negative self talk. Then it's like a self fulfilling prophecy, you're going to get up

[00:08:49] there and you're going to bomb. And then you're going to just be like, yeah, I can't do it.

[00:08:53] And so that's one big part of the problem is the negative self talk. Sometimes it shapes,

[00:08:58] it's shaped because of a negative previous experience. Sometimes it's just because you're

[00:09:02] not used to having all eyes on you. And that makes you nervous when people are paying

[00:09:07] attention. And that's valid. Like I get why people might feel that way. But I always ask

[00:09:12] students, why do you care so much about what other people think?

[00:09:16] Well, that's like every human being, right? There's a quote, it's like,

[00:09:24] everyone goes and tries and do things to make people they don't even like show off to others.

[00:09:30] I can't remember the exact words. But it's like you do things that you don't like to

[00:09:37] impress the people that you don't even like. It's like, why would you?

[00:09:41] Why bother? Right. Because if someone is genuinely interested in what you have to say,

[00:09:47] they're not going to be bothered by the one or two times you may have said something incorrect.

[00:09:52] Or, you know, like, and there's a difference between falsifying information and actually not

[00:09:57] knowing or making a mistake. Right. There are lines that we need to draw in terms of what we

[00:10:01] expect from other people. But this idea of like perfection and telling ourselves like we're

[00:10:07] not allowed to mess up and then telling ourselves we're not even capable of like doing it.

[00:10:12] I think that's forming a lot of anxiety around especially like college students today.

[00:10:16] Like when I see them coming up, they'll walk to the front of the room before us.

[00:10:21] You see it on their face, they just want to die.

[00:10:24] Yeah. Right. It's the and it's quiet too, right? Like no one because everyone knows it's

[00:10:29] almost like a shared experience. They're like, oh, it's his turn. It's like he's walking up

[00:10:32] to the execution block or something. Yeah, it's pin drop silence, which only further I think

[00:10:39] adds to like the shakiness that's in their soul at the moment. And like last semester,

[00:10:45] I had a student who came up to the front of the class to give her speech.

[00:10:49] This completely silence for about 30 seconds, right? And then she starts crying. She's just

[00:10:54] like full blown having like a book down that she can't do it. So everyone in the classroom

[00:10:59] was trying to cheer her on and they're like, no, you got this. You can do it. And as wonderful

[00:11:04] as that was having 20 people like shouting that you can do this is also not helpful.

[00:11:12] She stopped crying, which she was still like freaked out that like, okay, guys,

[00:11:16] like I think you think I can do this, but I don't think I can do this. So I had to tell

[00:11:20] everybody to like, you know, quiet down and give her a minute. I'm like, just take a deep

[00:11:24] breath. Start with what you've prepared. What would you like to tell us today? And let's do

[00:11:29] baby steps. Let's just start with the intro, you know, and it was, I think that was like a

[00:11:33] five minute presentation. She made it to minute three and then I just didn't even have it in

[00:11:38] me to like make her keep going. I was like, you know what, why don't you go ahead and have

[00:11:41] a seat, take a break. Everyone gave her a round of applause. She did do a little bit

[00:11:46] better the next time, but she had to walk through a lot of these ideas of like,

[00:11:50] she had anxiety because English was not her first language. So she was worried that people

[00:11:55] weren't going to understand her. And because of English being her second language, she was

[00:11:59] putting a lot of pressure on her to like, if I can't pronounce a word, they're going to not

[00:12:03] understand me and everything's gonna fall apart. And I had to tell her like, if you

[00:12:08] mispronounce a word, there are fluent English speakers in the room that can help you. We

[00:12:13] can correct you. Yeah. And we're almost more than happy. Exactly. And if we get the general

[00:12:20] gist of what you're saying, that that's enough. Like we don't have to understand every single

[00:12:25] word, you know, like, and if we don't understand, we can ask questions and be like, what did you

[00:12:30] mean when you said this or that? And it's okay if you get a question and you say,

[00:12:35] that's a really good question. I actually don't know the answer to that. I'm going to have

[00:12:38] to look into it. That adds a whole other level of like anxiety when there's like the

[00:12:42] Q and A after a speech, because now everyone's going in with this idea of like, oh, if they're

[00:12:48] going to ask me questions, it's to test me or trick me up. And that's not all the motivation.

[00:12:53] It's just to enhance your understanding of something. But we go in feeling anxious and

[00:12:58] then we get defensive. And it's just such a spiral of negativity for so many people.

[00:13:03] And I think we need to overcome like so much. But I think negative self-talk is a huge

[00:13:09] element, like telling ourselves we're not capable. It affects our self-efficacy and

[00:13:14] then we believe it. It's true. And I would say that's one of the things that comes down

[00:13:21] just to the person as well, right? Where that's the one thing they can control.

[00:13:25] It's like, all right, the words you're putting into your mind, that's up to you

[00:13:28] to decide. Of course, there's going to be other factors. But the thing is, is you can always

[00:13:35] go and learn and try and improve over time. Like let's say you don't, maybe it's like,

[00:13:42] I don't know, just like what you said, pronunciation. You can work on that, right?

[00:13:45] You can go out and like you said, get feedback. Whereas just that talk that's going on in your

[00:13:50] head, that's the one thing that no one really can help you with, I would say. And that's

[00:13:55] solely dependent on you. It's completely dependent on you.

[00:13:58] And it's kind of like, you know how if you're having a really bad day and someone

[00:14:03] tells you, oh, don't worry about it, that's going to be okay. That's not the cure to making

[00:14:07] you feel better, right? It's not until you tell yourself I'm going to be okay that you'll actually

[00:14:13] feel better. Like other people support and complimentary words as nice as they are.

[00:14:20] They don't change sort of the mental way that like you're looking at a situation,

[00:14:24] right? Like what's going on in your own head and what you're telling yourself

[00:14:28] about a situation that has the most impact on how you're going to perceive it,

[00:14:33] right? Like other people can tell you, oh, you're doing great. But if you yourself

[00:14:37] don't believe you're doing great, it's almost meaningless, right? Like feedback is key though,

[00:14:42] I will say. But it has to be very specific feedback, right? Like if we tell someone

[00:14:46] something like, oh, that speech was great. That's kind of meaningless. It's nice. It's

[00:14:52] a nice thing. But without it was great. I have to be very specific with my students.

[00:14:57] And the reason that I do that is so that that's something that they'll remember. That's

[00:15:01] something that they're going to hold on to. And that's actually going to shape that inner

[00:15:05] self talk, right? Because you're going to hold on to something vague like, oh, I did a great job.

[00:15:10] You will hold on to something like I was really effective with my eye contact during the

[00:15:14] introduction of my speech or I did a great job with starting my speech with a startling

[00:15:19] statistic to get everybody's attention. Specific feedback. That's what we internalize.

[00:15:24] That's what we remember. And even more so if it's negative, right? If someone's

[00:15:29] you really messed up when you said X, Y and Z, you'll never forget that you said that.

[00:15:34] It's true. And that last statement, especially it reminded me of something my coach said.

[00:15:41] So I ran track a while way back when and he said something he's like positive reinforcement

[00:15:49] for each compliment you get. Wait, no, it's for each negative thing that goes through your

[00:15:55] mind. It takes like 10 positive things to get out of that cycle. And like you said,

[00:16:02] it's really vicious. And I like that you said that needs to be specific because,

[00:16:10] right? It's something that one they can hold on to. It's like, okay, let's work on that.

[00:16:14] I did that good. And also, right, kind of builds up that confidence. But also,

[00:16:21] I don't know, maybe this is just how my mind works, but I'm always like searching for like,

[00:16:26] all right, how can I improve? Like I crave kind of that. All right, let's find that mistake

[00:16:32] that we made and fix it type of thing. So sometimes those comments are almost like a relief.

[00:16:38] It's like, oh, I actually did do something good. And so I guess kind of where's that balancing

[00:16:45] act of like, I still think you want to push towards improvement, but like,

[00:16:53] not let that negative self talk kind of does that kind of make sense? Like,

[00:16:57] not let that negative self talk, like rule you. Right. Yeah. Because it's positive or negative.

[00:17:04] You don't want it to rule you, right? Because if it's positive, you're not going to recognize

[00:17:08] areas for growth. And if it's all negative, then you're not going to necessarily feel like

[00:17:12] you're capable of growth. So it has to absolutely be a balance. And so I think,

[00:17:16] you know, the strategy that I tend to implement with not just with my students,

[00:17:20] but also even with my kids is like, if I give them specific positive feedback about

[00:17:25] something that they did well, that will come first. And what's always follow is here's an

[00:17:31] area for growth. And so and also being really mindful of how we frame that, right? It's not

[00:17:38] positioned as a mistake. It's not positioned as a flaw. It's framed more as here's what you did

[00:17:44] great. Here's what you can do better. Right. So now you're attaching this like growth

[00:17:49] mindset to it because it's all about the mindset when it comes to self talk. When it

[00:17:54] comes to anxiety associated with communication, like how are we framing it? Is it a growth

[00:17:59] mindset? Because we're never even though I've been teaching it for years and I always start

[00:18:03] every semester with this is telling people I'm not an expert. Right there. I'm always learning.

[00:18:08] I'm always saying in the backtracking and being like, man, I shouldn't have said that or

[00:18:13] should have said this instead. And that's that's the beauty of communication. Like while

[00:18:18] it's something we can constantly consistently like are growing on, we can also recognize

[00:18:23] when we are doing something really well and like hone in on that. But you also have to

[00:18:27] understand that it's something that you're going to continuously grow upon and having

[00:18:31] this understanding of like the way that you and I communicated 10 years ago is not how we

[00:18:35] communicate now because your life experiences in your worldview shape how you want to be

[00:18:40] perceived and how you perceive the world and that impacts how you communicate. And so

[00:18:44] the growth is always there, whether you recognize it or not. But when you're

[00:18:48] actually looking at feedback specifically to like public speaking skills, you have to

[00:18:54] the way that I frame it is like here's what worked well. Here's what you're doing great.

[00:18:58] Here are your areas for growth. And so that frame around it allows a student or an individual

[00:19:04] to feel like, OK, here's what I need to focus on. And then now I need to figure out how do

[00:19:08] I actually do this better? Right. Something a lot of people struggle with is eye contact.

[00:19:14] Eye contact makes one so uncomfortable if it's more than three seconds. Like I think

[00:19:19] it's partially because we're so used to looking at phones and screens. Yeah. When there's a

[00:19:23] person or live people in front of you, you're just like, oh, my God, I don't know what to

[00:19:27] do with my eyes. No, it's true. Yeah, I we're all guilty of it. Right. And

[00:19:36] like more than five seconds is weird. That's just the right. And so if I'm saying like,

[00:19:42] OK, your eye contact could be improved now and need to follow that up with some specific

[00:19:47] strategies like it's not enough for a growth mindset to hear that you have an area for

[00:19:51] improvement. How do you actually go about improving it? So then it needs to come down

[00:19:55] to different strategies depending on where the issue lies. Right. So for some people,

[00:20:00] it'll just take a couple of practice sessions where they're recording themselves

[00:20:04] and just looking at the camera. They just need to be more still. And it's a matter of

[00:20:08] too much movement for some people. They're so uncomfortable by it that I have to tell them

[00:20:13] to set like an internal timer, look at one person on each side of the room for at least

[00:20:19] three seconds, but in a natural way, not like where your eyes are darting because that's

[00:20:24] weird. Right. So I have to give them different strategies for like, how do we actually work

[00:20:29] on this particular skill? Some people struggle with things like vocal fillers. And so

[00:20:34] for that, again, they need to record themselves. And then I tell them to actually count and keep

[00:20:40] a tally of how many times did you say like, how many times did you say basically,

[00:20:45] these are fillers, these are not words that are contributing to an intelligent conversation.

[00:20:52] Like that's the thing about it. Like we have to have first the frame of there's an area

[00:20:56] for growth, recognizing it not as a mistake or a flaw, but like here's something you

[00:21:02] could do better. And then following that up with here's how here are different things

[00:21:06] that you can try. So you feel like empowered, you feel like, okay, there's things I definitely

[00:21:10] did right. There's things I can do better and there's ways I can try to do better. So you're

[00:21:15] set up for success rather than hearing something ineffective, like that was a great job or

[00:21:22] you can do better next time. Exactly. That reminds me of something one of my

[00:21:30] family members actually has been trying to drill into my mind. And that's,

[00:21:37] you can, there's a lot of nice people, right? And that's in no short supply, but there's not

[00:21:43] enough kind people. And I think, right, it's almost right. You're doing them a service when

[00:21:48] you say, Hey, look, you didn't do so hot here, but hey, there's like you said, frame it in a

[00:21:54] way, like a kind way. That's why what they've been trying to drill in my mind frame it in a

[00:21:59] way that sorry, my mind blank, but for frame that, yeah, frame that sentence in a way or

[00:22:07] that feedback that you're giving to someone else or someone, whatever it may be in a way that's

[00:22:14] helpful and kind, right? Because like you said, it empowers them. And especially I liked how

[00:22:20] you said to add some sort of action plan as well, because then it gives them a chance to be like,

[00:22:26] okay, now I know what to do moving forward. Instead of just this, you did a great job. It's

[00:22:32] like cool story, man. And I mean, that's actually something that gets on my nerves.

[00:22:37] Sometimes it's like, just tell me, just tell me what I need to improve on. And then

[00:22:43] like, I'll do it. Like, trust me, I'll work on it.

[00:22:46] And I think that kindness is like, it's a two way street. It's not just like the person giving

[00:22:52] you feedback, but it also has to be internal. Like just now, a second ago, when you lost your

[00:22:57] frame of thought, your go to was to say sorry, you don't owe me an apology for that. Like

[00:23:02] you don't and but you're putting this anywhere on it, like that you almost did something wrong,

[00:23:07] because you forgot for a second what to say. But that's human. That's conversations. Like,

[00:23:12] why not instead be more inclined to be like, hold on, I lost my frame of thought, like,

[00:23:17] give me a second, right? Just hold on there with me for a second. But we internalized like,

[00:23:22] oh, I'm making a mistake, I need to apologize to you because I'm not saying what I wanted to say,

[00:23:28] or I'm not clear on what I want to say. That's okay. It's a live conversation. But

[00:23:33] you can process information at your own pace. And if you need a minute to like collect your

[00:23:38] thoughts, that's okay. And I think that another part of that's connected to that is this idea that

[00:23:43] like, silence is awkward. Silence is golden. It means you're thinking it means you're being

[00:23:50] thoughtful, right? And that kindness to yourself and the person that you're talking to,

[00:23:54] that you're critically thinking about what you're going to say and how it might be

[00:23:58] received to keep that conversation going further. Well, thank you for that. I

[00:24:03] didn't even think about that too. It's just subconscious, right?

[00:24:07] Why this stuff is like we just put these internal cues in our minds of like,

[00:24:12] I can't say this or I have to say this or I should say speak this way. But these rules are

[00:24:17] so arbitrary, like everybody is speaking from their heart or their mind and should be given

[00:24:23] the time to do that. But everyone's timing is different, right? Like some people take a little

[00:24:29] bit longer to collect their thoughts and be responsive. And you know, and I think it's

[00:24:34] more forgivable in a one on one or like a small group conversation. But I think it's all it

[00:24:40] should be permitted even in public speaking, like and I will, I almost do it sometimes on

[00:24:45] purpose. I will admit like, it's a little bit staged, but I do it because I want students to see

[00:24:50] that I've forgotten what I needed to say. And I'll just be like, hold on, I lost my train

[00:24:56] of thought here guys, like what are you talking about? And like, I used to be afraid

[00:25:01] of doing that because it was like, they're going to think I'm dumb and I'm not prepared.

[00:25:04] But then I was like, I don't really care what they think this is in service to them. Because

[00:25:07] if they see me doing this, they'll be okay with doing it themselves when they're standing

[00:25:12] in front of the class doing their presentation. Like, it's okay to say things like, hang on,

[00:25:17] I forgot what I was going to say next. Let me re rethink this for a second or give me a minute

[00:25:24] as I try to figure out what my next point was going to be. Or that's a really good

[00:25:28] question. I'm sorry, I actually don't know the answer to that. I'm going to have to get back to

[00:25:31] you. And I would even say that's an opportunity to engage like the other person, right? Because

[00:25:40] like you said with the, like you said with how you do it with your students,

[00:25:47] I think that's also like you kind of how you framed it as a question. It gives them

[00:25:51] a chance to be like, oh yeah, like this is what you were talking about. And then it helps

[00:25:55] you kind of organize your thoughts even quicker. And it engages them. So now they're more

[00:26:00] interested in talking with you and like what's next that you want to say? Because Anna also shows

[00:26:08] that they were paying attention, which I'm sure is helpful as a teacher.

[00:26:12] Absolutely. And it kind of I think it humanizes the person that's like speaking at the front

[00:26:17] of the room, right? Like whoever whether it's an educator or presenter, like when you're

[00:26:22] fully engaged with your audience, even if it's in a format that like where they're telling you

[00:26:27] what is expected of you, like that makes you seem like, okay, this person is approachable.

[00:26:33] Like and then you're more inclined to pay attention when someone is speaking anyway,

[00:26:37] because you feel like it's because it's I think when it comes to communication,

[00:26:41] it's like 75% about how you're saying it. And 25% is the what what are you actually saying?

[00:26:48] Right? Like, I could be making all kinds of stuff up with you. But if I'm doing it in a way

[00:26:54] that's approachable and relatable, and a little bit of humor here and there,

[00:26:58] you're going to engage with me. Maybe it won't make sense later. But in that

[00:27:03] you're into it, right? Because it's like about how I'm talking to you and how I feel

[00:27:08] like I'm communicating that it's important for me to engage with you, like through eye contact,

[00:27:13] through vocal variety, through the pacing of my speech and how quickly or rapidly the words are

[00:27:19] coming out. All of these things play a role in how you are thinking she knows what she's

[00:27:24] talking about. Or I want to listen to what she has to say. It's less about what I'm actually

[00:27:29] saying. Yeah, it's it's almost like there's a science behind it, right? And there's certain

[00:27:38] things that you have to do. I remember watching actually a video a while back and it was I mean,

[00:27:45] it was just typical sales stuff. And I was like, All right, a lot of it was whatever. There's

[00:27:51] actually three parts that I kind of went in stood out to me. And it was 50 is like 60%

[00:27:59] is what like your body language and another percent is like your tone of voice.

[00:28:04] Like you said, pacing, all that stuff. It's like 5% is actually what it is you're saying. It's like,

[00:28:10] OK, this is like this is great. But it's the stuff that you do to engage other people.

[00:28:18] Absolutely. Yeah, I forget the name of the guy, but there's actually a TED talk and

[00:28:23] the title of the TED talk is How to Sound Smart in your TED talk. And the guy that's

[00:28:30] delivering it, he has no content. He's literally just making stuff up and saying random things.

[00:28:36] At one point, he's even talking in gibberish. But you can't stop watching it because of the way

[00:28:41] that he's delivering it. He's funny. He seems charming. He seems like somebody you would

[00:28:46] become friends with relatively easily because he's just kind of this like goofy character.

[00:28:51] And and it just is further proof of this idea that like you could literally say whatever

[00:28:57] it is that pops into your brain. But how you're saying it is what's going to actually

[00:29:01] connect you to another person. And that's why we need to communicate, right? It's all about

[00:29:06] connection. And like with public speaking, audience connection is 100% dependent on the way

[00:29:12] that you're speaking to the audience. Right. Like are you with them? Are you moving around?

[00:29:17] Do you like the people that are robotic, rigid, not moving and have the content memorized,

[00:29:24] they may have all of their facts and research based evidence. But it's like listening to a

[00:29:28] robot. Nobody's engaged. No one's paying attention. And if you ask them follow up questions,

[00:29:35] I don't know. Yeah, they're kind of, you know, that kind of goes. I mean, I don't want

[00:29:42] to like but like, it goes to the kind of the tone of voice, right? It's like, yeah.

[00:29:47] If you're just saying the same, like kind of that monotone, right, they say,

[00:29:52] yeah, that you want to avoid kind of the monotone, you want to, you know, volume,

[00:29:59] I've heard is important, right? You want to go intense volume and then kind of quiet

[00:30:04] things like that. I don't know if that's legit, but

[00:30:09] because you know how sometimes if you'll you're listening to someone talk,

[00:30:13] you'll know just based off of their volume and pitch when a certain word or phrase has

[00:30:19] more emphasis on it, because they'll be like louder at that point. Like you have to do this,

[00:30:25] right? So that's compelling you there's some sort of action that they really want you to take

[00:30:29] like their voice just as louder with certain parts that has this like we have this internal

[00:30:34] response when we hear people put emphasis on certain words, even if we filtered out

[00:30:39] everything they said before that point, that part of that conversation is going to stay with you

[00:30:43] because of the way that it was said, whether it was something was louder or they had like

[00:30:48] clap their hands or they, you know, slammed the table or something depending on what the

[00:30:52] conversation is about. But it's like emphasis on certain words is highly dependent on tone,

[00:30:57] volume, pitch and rate. And it is verbal but at the same time non-verbally kind of communicates

[00:31:03] importance on a certain point. And it gets your attention even if you were like completely

[00:31:08] tuned out before then you're like, oh wait now this is important. I know it's important

[00:31:12] because of the way that it was said not because of the content itself. The content

[00:31:16] processing that content obviously that has its place but that comes later once you're actually

[00:31:20] paying attention. But that's how you get someone to pay attention, right? Like that vocal. The

[00:31:26] monotone speeches are a nightmare. The monotone speeches are the ones where all they care about

[00:31:33] is like I need to say all of these things because they're just focusing on this is

[00:31:39] what's going to make sense and so that's all that's important is that I make sense.

[00:31:43] And that's the problem because that's not the number one thing that you need to do when you're

[00:31:47] communicating. Every time you're opening your mouth, the number one thing you need to do is

[00:31:51] connect. You need to connect with one other person whether it makes sense or not that's

[00:31:56] to be determined later because if you and I are connecting and we're having a conversation,

[00:32:00] if I say something that doesn't make sense, you now feel comfortable asking me for

[00:32:05] clarification, right? Yeah. And that's connection. That's how we actually learn.

[00:32:11] But if I'm just focused on I have these facts, I'm going to say them in a robotic monotone manner.

[00:32:16] I might know what I'm talking about but 30 seconds into it you'll be like yeah I don't

[00:32:21] care about this. Yeah. It's the delivery because even if the information is good,

[00:32:30] like you said that stuff you're sharing is good again drives your point home. It's

[00:32:35] the delivery of that information that matters because especially in today, I mean

[00:32:42] that's why social media and all YouTube, all those platforms have blown up because

[00:32:50] it's an opportunity to engage with someone on the other side of the screen and if you're

[00:32:54] not like doing things that aren't engaging or gets their attention or whatever it may be,

[00:33:03] the information that you're sharing, they could care less even if it's really really good stuff.

[00:33:08] Yeah, it's about how. It's about the how that matters. But unfortunately social media has also

[00:33:14] created such a difficult dynamic around communication because like these teenagers

[00:33:21] are you know obviously there's so much data to back up that they are all addicted to it

[00:33:25] right? But this very curated online persona is what they're comparing themselves to and so

[00:33:33] if they feel even a little bit less than when they communicate, now it's even more emboldened

[00:33:39] by like I don't sound like her, I can't talk like her, I can't engage people like her or him

[00:33:44] or whoever right? And so it puts this false narrative in our minds that like I'm not

[00:33:50] going to be that engaging. I can't speak to people in this way right? Or the other thing

[00:33:56] that's happening is people feel very empowered and emboldened and confident behind a screen

[00:34:02] completely disappears in front of a person. Yes, I'm definitely one of those I would say.

[00:34:10] I fall into some of those categories. And like you know it's human nature there's sometimes

[00:34:16] we're all on and sometimes you're having an off day and but when you're online you're always

[00:34:22] on right? And so that also builds this false narrative and expectation especially with young

[00:34:27] people I think that they need to always be engaging and if they're not they don't belong

[00:34:32] or they shouldn't speak or they're not capable and that negative self-talk starts right there

[00:34:35] because they're coming at it from this idea of like comparison which is the thief of all joy

[00:34:41] and that's what I feel like social media is doing for everyone right? But it's like

[00:34:46] it's curated and it's you don't know how many times they've recorded that you don't know how

[00:34:50] many times they've messed up right? Like that's the most polished version of it but

[00:34:55] that doesn't mean that they're always polished every time they open their mouth and that nor

[00:34:59] should that be the expectation but I think that social media is definitely putting a huge

[00:35:05] amount of anxiety on people when it comes to their communication skills because it's this

[00:35:10] expectation of like in full engagement all the time which is impossible to achieve and

[00:35:17] then there's also like the added element of anxiety of having a live audience or live

[00:35:23] conversations rather than a recorded one and because everybody is a star behind a camera.

[00:35:29] Yeah right no it's true. It's definitely part of the problem I think unfortunately like I mean

[00:35:36] I'm not I don't want to knock social media I understand that it has its advantages in a lot

[00:35:40] of ways right? Audience engagement like you were talking about like there's definitely we can assess

[00:35:46] who we want to listen to and who we want to follow because of their online presence

[00:35:50] and people can be super captivating but then the other side of it especially in the classroom

[00:35:55] like I see the other side of it. It's really hard to tell students that you know it's

[00:36:01] they're not like we're not looking for influencer level communication like

[00:36:07] that's not the go-to that's not the goal.

[00:36:09] Yeah it almost affects development right like of that communication and I would even say like

[00:36:17] even the people that may like yeah to your point they're throwing on their best version

[00:36:22] as well also some of the people that are out there took them years to learn how to

[00:36:30] communicate that way in the first place and so like you said I'm guilty of it too right?

[00:36:36] And so like you said I'm guilty of it too right? You compare yourself to that person you're like

[00:36:41] man I want to be like that right be that good but then you don't see the years and years of

[00:36:46] work that they put into getting that good. Right and I think like with communication skills

[00:36:54] it takes a lot to even get your mind wrapped around the idea of like it is actually a

[00:37:00] learned skill because you've been doing it since you were born right and so when you've

[00:37:04] been doing something since the day you were born you're gonna assume you're doing it right,

[00:37:09] you're doing it well it's been working out so smart.

[00:37:14] It's something we actually do need to like actually like pay attention to and work on and

[00:37:19] willfully like try to improve and it's interesting because like you know at the

[00:37:24] university there's people there's students that are coming from all over the world

[00:37:28] and so I've seen in some high schools now they do require communication courses

[00:37:33] some colleges like mine they do require like my course is a graduation requirement regardless

[00:37:39] of your major because it is a skill that everyone needs to have but I feel like these

[00:37:44] are classes that like I think only some high schools are doing it but I think it needs to

[00:37:49] be at the elementary school level, middle school, high school, college and it needs

[00:37:54] to be a part of professional development. It needs to be a lifelong plan to like improve

[00:37:59] because you're always going to be doing it. Are you aware of how well you're doing it?

[00:38:03] Are you aware of where you need to grow? It's true there's no deliberate right practice which

[00:38:10] I think that's yeah I've found that's actually pretty helpful that when you actually turn

[00:38:15] your mind on to be like all right I'm gonna deliberately practice this yeah and then it

[00:38:20] slowly like kind of meshes into one. I don't know if that makes sense but it does

[00:38:26] because like you it's just this it's a process it's not something that you like whether it's

[00:38:30] public speaking or interpersonal communication whatever the type is it's a process and so if

[00:38:36] like at the elementary school level if we start working on like having kids just understand

[00:38:42] better listening skills because kids don't listen right they need to be taught how to listen

[00:38:47] they need to be taught how to pay attention and for because like there's research that shows

[00:38:52] if you're actually participating in active listening your body's physical reaction to it

[00:38:57] is that similar to a workout where your heart rate will increase you may even may even perspire

[00:39:04] your entire body is fully engaged when you're actively paying attention to someone.

[00:39:08] I didn't know that that's fascinating because you're it's not just about your mind all of

[00:39:14] your senses are fully engaged when you're participating in active listening right and so

[00:39:19] and it's one of those things that you can totally fake and the other person thinks you're doing it

[00:39:23] because you're making eye contact but in reality you're thinking about what you're going to eat

[00:39:26] for lunch later. Yeah it's a problem because like if kids aren't taught at a young age how

[00:39:37] to actively listen then why do we as adults get annoyed when they're not doing it when

[00:39:43] they're teenagers were they taught how to do it maybe maybe right like and there's a difference

[00:39:50] between like the physiological element of being able to hear you versus listening to understand

[00:39:56] you most people are listening to respond to you which is also not enough listening it's not

[00:40:03] right and so listening is a huge element of communication that gets completely overlooked

[00:40:09] and then you know and it's it's to a student's detriment because by the time you are in college

[00:40:15] you're a full-time university student you're listening 80 percent of your day but you were

[00:40:20] never actually taught how to do it in an effective manner you know and that matters

[00:40:26] like I have I have a daughter who is in sixth grade and in fifth grade they learned

[00:40:32] how to take notes properly and how to organize their notes and so that that facilitated

[00:40:38] better learning listening skills because she had to she had like a whole plan of how she needed

[00:40:43] to take these notes what were the main ideas what are questions or what are follow-up things

[00:40:48] she needs to research so she was listening for specific pieces of information that made her more

[00:40:54] engaged and that made her a better learner in the long run but it wasn't until fifth grade

[00:41:00] even came up in the full setting right yeah I didn't even think about that too right when you're

[00:41:06] by the time you get to that college level where it is mostly listening you haven't even developed

[00:41:09] that skill exactly you're kind of screwed at the college level then you're listening to

[00:41:17] either respond or to regurgitate because you're going to be tested on that later

[00:41:22] it's a very different thing to listen to someone to actually truly understand and absorb

[00:41:26] and retain information and they're only doing that in the classes that they're enjoying like

[00:41:32] but then it's selective listening it's not you know that's not what we're going for if you're

[00:41:38] 80 percent of your day is listening but 20 percent of it is when you want to listen

[00:41:43] then you know it's a disservice to the student and the educator interesting that that's

[00:41:48] fascinating I didn't know that it opened my mind to whole new so thank you thank you

[00:41:54] thank you for that so I hate to wrap this up I want to be respectful of your time but

[00:42:00] if people want to find you reach out to you take your class whatever it may be

[00:42:05] what's the best way that they can do all that if you could google my name on my university

[00:42:11] page will show up and I'm associated with University of Maryland as a lecturer there

[00:42:15] I also actually do communication coaching one-on-one with people to help and that

[00:42:20] varies from like teenagers to adults so google is probably your best bet that I'm

[00:42:25] in the process of getting a website up and running but it's not quite there yet

[00:42:29] so that might and I can give you my email address if people reach out to you

[00:42:32] awesome well thank you Sabine for coming on today and sharing your knowledge it's

[00:42:37] I learned a lot oh I'm so glad thank you so much for this opportunity it means a lot to me

[00:42:42] to have this this dialogue with someone that's like doing such great work the intelligent

[00:42:47] conversations that you're having are a service to like a worldwide community and it was an honor

[00:42:53] thank you so much well thank you all right everyone as you can tell that is Sabine Sheikh

[00:42:57] she's a very intelligent person has great things to share I challenge you guys if anything

[00:43:02] spoke to you or if you're interested in receiving coaching from her to reach out to her I'm sure

[00:43:07] she would be glad to help you stay tuned till next week we have a great guest lined

[00:43:11] up for you guys see you guys next week and let's get after it hey everyone if you liked

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