"Focus on Improvement" feat. Sabeen Sheikh
Intelligent ConversationsMay 15, 2024x
18
00:43:4740.1 MB

"Focus on Improvement" feat. Sabeen Sheikh

Listen to Sabeen Sheikh share her journey of helping student improve communication. Sabeen is an educator at the University of Maryland and teaches students how to communicate better in their professional and personal lives. Sabeen has helped students overcome that fear of public speaking, which is the second most feared thing to do in the United States. Tune in now to Sabeen Sheikh learn how we can communicate better!


Hosted By: Josh Baker

Guest(s): Sabeen Sheikh


You can connect with Sabeen Sheikh on LinkedIn!


Follow the Intelligent Conversations on Social Media to

stay updated!

Instagram

Twitter

LinkedIn

TikTok

Facebook

Subscribe to Intelligent Conversations on Your Favorite

Place to Listen!

Apple Podcasts

Google Podcasts

Spotify

Audible

Amazon Music

[00:00:00] and I think that kindness is like, it's a two way street. It's not just like the person giving you

[00:00:05] feedback, but it also has to be internal. Like just now, a second ago when you lost your frame of

[00:00:10] thought, your go-to was to say sorry. You don't owe me an apology for that. Like you don't,

[00:00:16] and but you're putting this thing around it like that you almost did something wrong because

[00:00:19] you forgot for a second what to say. But that's human. That's conversations. Like why not

[00:00:26] be more inclined to be like, hold on. I lost my frame of thought. Like give me a second,

[00:00:30] right? Just hold on. Bear with me for a second. But we internalized like, oh, I'm making a mistake.

[00:00:36] I need to apologize to you because I'm not saying what I wanted to say or I'm not clear on what

[00:00:42] I want to say. That's okay. Hey everyone. Welcome back to the Intelligent Conversations

[00:00:56] podcast. Today I have the honor to learn from Sabine Shaikh. Sabine is an educator at

[00:01:02] the University of Maryland and teaches students how to communicate better in their professional

[00:01:07] and personal lives. Sabine has helped students overcome that fear of public speaking, which

[00:01:13] is the second most feared thing to do in the United States, which blows my mind by the way.

[00:01:20] Sabine, this conversation with Sabine was just very insightful. I got to learn a lot

[00:01:25] that helped me improve my communication skills as well and also recognize, you know,

[00:01:32] areas for improvement and also things I am doing well at. It's just the conversation I had

[00:01:37] with Sabine was awesome. She also gave us ways on how we can help others improve their

[00:01:44] communication with each other as well. I don't want to spoil any of the rest of the show,

[00:01:50] but without further ado, let's welcome Sabine Shaikh to the show. I'm excited to have you on

[00:01:56] today. There's three things I would say that I do this show for. Number one, I try to keep

[00:02:02] the audience in mind. Number two, I hope you have a great experience. And number three,

[00:02:07] and this is my selfish reason, I just get to learn from fascinating people. So thank you

[00:02:11] for taking the time to come on today. Well, thank you for having me. I appreciate

[00:02:16] the opportunity. And like you, I love learning. And so your podcast is one of those awesome

[00:02:22] things where these casual conversations, you just manage to have this like aha moment.

[00:02:27] And it's great because, you know, like we live in this fast-paced world where

[00:02:31] information is constantly coming at us. And there's a lot to learn at every age. And so

[00:02:37] these types of mechanisms, like simple, easy to listen to podcasts are so great for

[00:02:43] understanding everything. So thank you. No, I'm glad to have you on. It's,

[00:02:49] I mean, just communication in general. That's, I actually just had someone on

[00:02:54] that talked about that and kind of more of the styles of communication. I don't know

[00:02:58] if you're familiar with that, but as you can tell, like I kind of go in cycles. It's

[00:03:05] like, all right, man, I want to improve this aspect. So it's fun. So how did you get into

[00:03:14] communication and all that? And now teaching it is my question.

[00:03:20] So I started with research. I actually used to work for like the graduate management

[00:03:25] admission council who was in charge of the GMAT exam. And I would do a lot of research

[00:03:30] and a lot of qualitative research where I was paying close attention to how people react to

[00:03:35] different products and services. And became really interested in like testing anxiety.

[00:03:42] And then that kind of led me to just being interested in anxiety in general and just like

[00:03:47] learning how to read people and the behavioral science behind why we say the things that we say

[00:03:54] and what compels us to like not say certain things. And then I was also in a lot of

[00:04:00] positions where I was presenting this research and honing my own communication skills.

[00:04:06] And I started noticing even for myself, when I initially started presenting a lot of research,

[00:04:12] I was getting really anxious and I never had that before. Like I feel like I grew up with

[00:04:18] a lot of attention. I was always center stage and never was afraid of having eyes on me

[00:04:24] until I started doing research orientation. And then I was just like, I need to figure this out.

[00:04:29] Like why am I feeling this way? And that actually took me right into I think other people

[00:04:35] might feel this way. Let me see if I can get more involved in this community. And now

[00:04:41] like I mean, I've taught various communication courses at the college level. I've done

[00:04:45] communication, family dynamics, intercultural. But for the past seven, no, 10 years,

[00:04:53] I've just been focusing on the public speaking and principles of oral communication.

[00:04:58] That's great.

[00:05:01] At all. I've had students pass out. They stood up, present and literally fainted.

[00:05:07] I've had students come up and completely blank and be like, I can't do this and I need to

[00:05:12] sit down. And you know, like it's substantiated through research. It's the second most feared

[00:05:20] thing in America. Number one is heights. Number two is public speaking.

[00:05:25] Dang. Not even death, right?

[00:05:29] No, people are more afraid of public speaking than the death. Yeah,

[00:05:34] like they'd rather be in the coffin than give the eulogy.

[00:05:41] That's true, right?

[00:05:42] Yeah, it's a problem because it should not be to that level. But it's and I understand,

[00:05:50] we are as a society, your instinct kicks in where survival instincts kick in if you're

[00:05:56] worried about rejection or judgment, right? You feel like you can't be in those situations

[00:06:01] and you want to get out of there. And I think that has a deep connection to like,

[00:06:05] is my audience going to think I'm dumb? I'm actually dumb. And then you go through it

[00:06:11] and something happens where you make a mistake and you're like, yeah, I'm done.

[00:06:15] Yeah.

[00:06:16] And it's a vicious cycle.

[00:06:18] So I guess kind of how you break out of that cycle because I find even just sometimes,

[00:06:23] right? I mean, when we hang out with friends or whatever, maybe, right,

[00:06:26] even just casual settings, it may just be like you say something like that maybe did not land

[00:06:32] the way I wanted to. How do you kind of, I guess, break that cycle? Maybe either correct it or,

[00:06:38] you know, improve it so that maybe it doesn't happen again.

[00:06:41] Well, I think first we need to understand why are we second guessing ourselves in the

[00:06:45] first place? Like it's so why isn't it just OK to like fumble on your words and be like,

[00:06:51] oh, that wasn't the right thing to say. Here's what I meant. And like, fix it.

[00:06:54] Even if it's like whether it's in casual conversations or at a speech in front of

[00:06:58] an audience of 30 to 100 people, like it does. I think the stakes that we put around these

[00:07:04] conversations has a lot to do with how we perceive it. Right. And a casual conversation

[00:07:08] with a one on one friend. If you say something and you say it incorrectly,

[00:07:13] you can laugh about it and casually fix it. But why can't we do have that same protocol

[00:07:18] in a more professional or higher stakes situation where there's a lot of people watching you?

[00:07:23] You're still human being. It's OK to make mistakes. And I think everybody thinks like

[00:07:28] you just can't mess up if you're talking to a group of people. And especially if

[00:07:32] it's like in a professional setting where it's a presentation, whether it's in the

[00:07:35] classroom or at a conference, you absolutely don't you can't mess up.

[00:07:40] And that's the narrative. And that's a problem because that's causing the anxiety.

[00:07:46] You know, like if I am not allowed to make a mistake, how can I do this and feel good

[00:07:51] about it? Because I'm going to make a mistake. You know, that's that's true.

[00:07:54] Almost just embrace that you're going to make mistakes in the presentation.

[00:07:58] You could even I guess make it part of your style to like, oh, there's another mistake.

[00:08:03] Right. And yeah, like own it like self deprecating humor tends to make people

[00:08:07] a little bit more uncomfortable. So you don't want to like call out on it every time.

[00:08:11] But there's also like research that shows that when we engage in like negative self talk,

[00:08:17] it almost becomes like a self fulfilling prophecy. And so I see with a lot of students,

[00:08:20] too, like if they had one public speaking experience that didn't go well,

[00:08:24] like either they messed up or they got a bad grade because something didn't go right.

[00:08:28] That almost forms like this trauma in their minds. So now they're telling themselves

[00:08:33] they're not capable of doing it. And then when you're tasked with doing it,

[00:08:37] because you've been telling yourself, I'm not good at this, I can't talk in front of people,

[00:08:41] everyone's going to be judging me. And you're constantly engaging in that vicious cycle of

[00:08:46] negative self talk. Then it's like a self fulfilling prophecy, you're going to get up

[00:08:49] there and you're going to bomb. And then you're going to just be like, yeah, I can't do it.

[00:08:53] And so that's one big part of the problem is the negative self talk. Sometimes it shapes,

[00:08:58] it's shaped because of a negative previous experience. Sometimes it's just because you're

[00:09:02] not used to having all eyes on you. And that makes you nervous when people are paying

[00:09:07] attention. And that's valid. Like I get why people might feel that way. But I always ask

[00:09:12] students, why do you care so much about what other people think?

[00:09:16] Well, that's like every human being, right? There's a quote, it's like,

[00:09:24] everyone goes and tries and do things to make people they don't even like show off to others.

[00:09:30] I can't remember the exact words. But it's like you do things that you don't like to

[00:09:37] impress the people that you don't even like. It's like, why would you?

[00:09:41] Why bother? Right. Because if someone is genuinely interested in what you have to say,

[00:09:47] they're not going to be bothered by the one or two times you may have said something incorrect.

[00:09:52] Or, you know, like, and there's a difference between falsifying information and actually not

[00:09:57] knowing or making a mistake. Right. There are lines that we need to draw in terms of what we

[00:10:01] expect from other people. But this idea of like perfection and telling ourselves like we're

[00:10:07] not allowed to mess up and then telling ourselves we're not even capable of like doing it.

[00:10:12] I think that's forming a lot of anxiety around especially like college students today.

[00:10:16] Like when I see them coming up, they'll walk to the front of the room before us.

[00:10:21] You see it on their face, they just want to die.

[00:10:24] Yeah. Right. It's the and it's quiet too, right? Like no one because everyone knows it's

[00:10:29] almost like a shared experience. They're like, oh, it's his turn. It's like he's walking up

[00:10:32] to the execution block or something. Yeah, it's pin drop silence, which only further I think

[00:10:39] adds to like the shakiness that's in their soul at the moment. And like last semester,

[00:10:45] I had a student who came up to the front of the class to give her speech.

[00:10:49] This completely silence for about 30 seconds, right? And then she starts crying. She's just

[00:10:54] like full blown having like a book down that she can't do it. So everyone in the classroom

[00:10:59] was trying to cheer her on and they're like, no, you got this. You can do it. And as wonderful

[00:11:04] as that was having 20 people like shouting that you can do this is also not helpful.

[00:11:12] She stopped crying, which she was still like freaked out that like, okay, guys,

[00:11:16] like I think you think I can do this, but I don't think I can do this. So I had to tell

[00:11:20] everybody to like, you know, quiet down and give her a minute. I'm like, just take a deep

[00:11:24] breath. Start with what you've prepared. What would you like to tell us today? And let's do

[00:11:29] baby steps. Let's just start with the intro, you know, and it was, I think that was like a

[00:11:33] five minute presentation. She made it to minute three and then I just didn't even have it in

[00:11:38] me to like make her keep going. I was like, you know what, why don't you go ahead and have

[00:11:41] a seat, take a break. Everyone gave her a round of applause. She did do a little bit

[00:11:46] better the next time, but she had to walk through a lot of these ideas of like,

[00:11:50] she had anxiety because English was not her first language. So she was worried that people

[00:11:55] weren't going to understand her. And because of English being her second language, she was

[00:11:59] putting a lot of pressure on her to like, if I can't pronounce a word, they're going to not

[00:12:03] understand me and everything's gonna fall apart. And I had to tell her like, if you

[00:12:08] mispronounce a word, there are fluent English speakers in the room that can help you. We

[00:12:13] can correct you. Yeah. And we're almost more than happy. Exactly. And if we get the general

[00:12:20] gist of what you're saying, that that's enough. Like we don't have to understand every single

[00:12:25] word, you know, like, and if we don't understand, we can ask questions and be like, what did you

[00:12:30] mean when you said this or that? And it's okay if you get a question and you say,

[00:12:35] that's a really good question. I actually don't know the answer to that. I'm going to have

[00:12:38] to look into it. That adds a whole other level of like anxiety when there's like the

[00:12:42] Q and A after a speech, because now everyone's going in with this idea of like, oh, if they're

[00:12:48] going to ask me questions, it's to test me or trick me up. And that's not all the motivation.

[00:12:53] It's just to enhance your understanding of something. But we go in feeling anxious and

[00:12:58] then we get defensive. And it's just such a spiral of negativity for so many people.

[00:13:03] And I think we need to overcome like so much. But I think negative self-talk is a huge

[00:13:09] element, like telling ourselves we're not capable. It affects our self-efficacy and

[00:13:14] then we believe it. It's true. And I would say that's one of the things that comes down

[00:13:21] just to the person as well, right? Where that's the one thing they can control.

[00:13:25] It's like, all right, the words you're putting into your mind, that's up to you

[00:13:28] to decide. Of course, there's going to be other factors. But the thing is, is you can always

[00:13:35] go and learn and try and improve over time. Like let's say you don't, maybe it's like,

[00:13:42] I don't know, just like what you said, pronunciation. You can work on that, right?

[00:13:45] You can go out and like you said, get feedback. Whereas just that talk that's going on in your

[00:13:50] head, that's the one thing that no one really can help you with, I would say. And that's

[00:13:55] solely dependent on you. It's completely dependent on you.

[00:13:58] And it's kind of like, you know how if you're having a really bad day and someone

[00:14:03] tells you, oh, don't worry about it, that's going to be okay. That's not the cure to making

[00:14:07] you feel better, right? It's not until you tell yourself I'm going to be okay that you'll actually

[00:14:13] feel better. Like other people support and complimentary words as nice as they are.

[00:14:20] They don't change sort of the mental way that like you're looking at a situation,

[00:14:24] right? Like what's going on in your own head and what you're telling yourself

[00:14:28] about a situation that has the most impact on how you're going to perceive it,

[00:14:33] right? Like other people can tell you, oh, you're doing great. But if you yourself

[00:14:37] don't believe you're doing great, it's almost meaningless, right? Like feedback is key though,

[00:14:42] I will say. But it has to be very specific feedback, right? Like if we tell someone

[00:14:46] something like, oh, that speech was great. That's kind of meaningless. It's nice. It's

[00:14:52] a nice thing. But without it was great. I have to be very specific with my students.

[00:14:57] And the reason that I do that is so that that's something that they'll remember. That's

[00:15:01] something that they're going to hold on to. And that's actually going to shape that inner

[00:15:05] self talk, right? Because you're going to hold on to something vague like, oh, I did a great job.

[00:15:10] You will hold on to something like I was really effective with my eye contact during the

[00:15:14] introduction of my speech or I did a great job with starting my speech with a startling

[00:15:19] statistic to get everybody's attention. Specific feedback. That's what we internalize.

[00:15:24] That's what we remember. And even more so if it's negative, right? If someone's

[00:15:29] you really messed up when you said X, Y and Z, you'll never forget that you said that.

[00:15:34] It's true. And that last statement, especially it reminded me of something my coach said.

[00:15:41] So I ran track a while way back when and he said something he's like positive reinforcement

[00:15:49] for each compliment you get. Wait, no, it's for each negative thing that goes through your

[00:15:55] mind. It takes like 10 positive things to get out of that cycle. And like you said,

[00:16:02] it's really vicious. And I like that you said that needs to be specific because,

[00:16:10] right? It's something that one they can hold on to. It's like, okay, let's work on that.

[00:16:14] I did that good. And also, right, kind of builds up that confidence. But also,

[00:16:21] I don't know, maybe this is just how my mind works, but I'm always like searching for like,

[00:16:26] all right, how can I improve? Like I crave kind of that. All right, let's find that mistake

[00:16:32] that we made and fix it type of thing. So sometimes those comments are almost like a relief.

[00:16:38] It's like, oh, I actually did do something good. And so I guess kind of where's that balancing

[00:16:45] act of like, I still think you want to push towards improvement, but like,

[00:16:53] not let that negative self talk kind of does that kind of make sense? Like,

[00:16:57] not let that negative self talk, like rule you. Right. Yeah. Because it's positive or negative.

[00:17:04] You don't want it to rule you, right? Because if it's positive, you're not going to recognize

[00:17:08] areas for growth. And if it's all negative, then you're not going to necessarily feel like

[00:17:12] you're capable of growth. So it has to absolutely be a balance. And so I think,

[00:17:16] you know, the strategy that I tend to implement with not just with my students,

[00:17:20] but also even with my kids is like, if I give them specific positive feedback about

[00:17:25] something that they did well, that will come first. And what's always follow is here's an

[00:17:31] area for growth. And so and also being really mindful of how we frame that, right? It's not

[00:17:38] positioned as a mistake. It's not positioned as a flaw. It's framed more as here's what you did

[00:17:44] great. Here's what you can do better. Right. So now you're attaching this like growth

[00:17:49] mindset to it because it's all about the mindset when it comes to self talk. When it

[00:17:54] comes to anxiety associated with communication, like how are we framing it? Is it a growth

[00:17:59] mindset? Because we're never even though I've been teaching it for years and I always start

[00:18:03] every semester with this is telling people I'm not an expert. Right there. I'm always learning.

[00:18:08] I'm always saying in the backtracking and being like, man, I shouldn't have said that or

[00:18:13] should have said this instead. And that's that's the beauty of communication. Like while

[00:18:18] it's something we can constantly consistently like are growing on, we can also recognize

[00:18:23] when we are doing something really well and like hone in on that. But you also have to

[00:18:27] understand that it's something that you're going to continuously grow upon and having

[00:18:31] this understanding of like the way that you and I communicated 10 years ago is not how we

[00:18:35] communicate now because your life experiences in your worldview shape how you want to be

[00:18:40] perceived and how you perceive the world and that impacts how you communicate. And so

[00:18:44] the growth is always there, whether you recognize it or not. But when you're

[00:18:48] actually looking at feedback specifically to like public speaking skills, you have to

[00:18:54] the way that I frame it is like here's what worked well. Here's what you're doing great.

[00:18:58] Here are your areas for growth. And so that frame around it allows a student or an individual

[00:19:04] to feel like, OK, here's what I need to focus on. And then now I need to figure out how do

[00:19:08] I actually do this better? Right. Something a lot of people struggle with is eye contact.

[00:19:14] Eye contact makes one so uncomfortable if it's more than three seconds. Like I think

[00:19:19] it's partially because we're so used to looking at phones and screens. Yeah. When there's a

[00:19:23] person or live people in front of you, you're just like, oh, my God, I don't know what to

[00:19:27] do with my eyes. No, it's true. Yeah, I we're all guilty of it. Right. And

[00:19:36] like more than five seconds is weird. That's just the right. And so if I'm saying like,

[00:19:42] OK, your eye contact could be improved now and need to follow that up with some specific

[00:19:47] strategies like it's not enough for a growth mindset to hear that you have an area for

[00:19:51] improvement. How do you actually go about improving it? So then it needs to come down

[00:19:55] to different strategies depending on where the issue lies. Right. So for some people,

[00:20:00] it'll just take a couple of practice sessions where they're recording themselves

[00:20:04] and just looking at the camera. They just need to be more still. And it's a matter of

[00:20:08] too much movement for some people. They're so uncomfortable by it that I have to tell them

[00:20:13] to set like an internal timer, look at one person on each side of the room for at least

[00:20:19] three seconds, but in a natural way, not like where your eyes are darting because that's

[00:20:24] weird. Right. So I have to give them different strategies for like, how do we actually work

[00:20:29] on this particular skill? Some people struggle with things like vocal fillers. And so

[00:20:34] for that, again, they need to record themselves. And then I tell them to actually count and keep

[00:20:40] a tally of how many times did you say like, how many times did you say basically,

[00:20:45] these are fillers, these are not words that are contributing to an intelligent conversation.

[00:20:52] Like that's the thing about it. Like we have to have first the frame of there's an area

[00:20:56] for growth, recognizing it not as a mistake or a flaw, but like here's something you

[00:21:02] could do better. And then following that up with here's how here are different things

[00:21:06] that you can try. So you feel like empowered, you feel like, okay, there's things I definitely

[00:21:10] did right. There's things I can do better and there's ways I can try to do better. So you're

[00:21:15] set up for success rather than hearing something ineffective, like that was a great job or

[00:21:22] you can do better next time. Exactly. That reminds me of something one of my

[00:21:30] family members actually has been trying to drill into my mind. And that's,

[00:21:37] you can, there's a lot of nice people, right? And that's in no short supply, but there's not

[00:21:43] enough kind people. And I think, right, it's almost right. You're doing them a service when

[00:21:48] you say, Hey, look, you didn't do so hot here, but hey, there's like you said, frame it in a

[00:21:54] way, like a kind way. That's why what they've been trying to drill in my mind frame it in a

[00:21:59] way that sorry, my mind blank, but for frame that, yeah, frame that sentence in a way or

[00:22:07] that feedback that you're giving to someone else or someone, whatever it may be in a way that's

[00:22:14] helpful and kind, right? Because like you said, it empowers them. And especially I liked how

[00:22:20] you said to add some sort of action plan as well, because then it gives them a chance to be like,

[00:22:26] okay, now I know what to do moving forward. Instead of just this, you did a great job. It's

[00:22:32] like cool story, man. And I mean, that's actually something that gets on my nerves.

[00:22:37] Sometimes it's like, just tell me, just tell me what I need to improve on. And then

[00:22:43] like, I'll do it. Like, trust me, I'll work on it.

[00:22:46] And I think that kindness is like, it's a two way street. It's not just like the person giving

[00:22:52] you feedback, but it also has to be internal. Like just now, a second ago, when you lost your

[00:22:57] frame of thought, your go to was to say sorry, you don't owe me an apology for that. Like

[00:23:02] you don't and but you're putting this anywhere on it, like that you almost did something wrong,

[00:23:07] because you forgot for a second what to say. But that's human. That's conversations. Like,

[00:23:12] why not instead be more inclined to be like, hold on, I lost my frame of thought, like,

[00:23:17] give me a second, right? Just hold on there with me for a second. But we internalized like,

[00:23:22] oh, I'm making a mistake, I need to apologize to you because I'm not saying what I wanted to say,

[00:23:28] or I'm not clear on what I want to say. That's okay. It's a live conversation. But

[00:23:33] you can process information at your own pace. And if you need a minute to like collect your

[00:23:38] thoughts, that's okay. And I think that another part of that's connected to that is this idea that

[00:23:43] like, silence is awkward. Silence is golden. It means you're thinking it means you're being

[00:23:50] thoughtful, right? And that kindness to yourself and the person that you're talking to,

[00:23:54] that you're critically thinking about what you're going to say and how it might be

[00:23:58] received to keep that conversation going further. Well, thank you for that. I

[00:24:03] didn't even think about that too. It's just subconscious, right?

[00:24:07] Why this stuff is like we just put these internal cues in our minds of like,

[00:24:12] I can't say this or I have to say this or I should say speak this way. But these rules are

[00:24:17] so arbitrary, like everybody is speaking from their heart or their mind and should be given

[00:24:23] the time to do that. But everyone's timing is different, right? Like some people take a little

[00:24:29] bit longer to collect their thoughts and be responsive. And you know, and I think it's

[00:24:34] more forgivable in a one on one or like a small group conversation. But I think it's all it

[00:24:40] should be permitted even in public speaking, like and I will, I almost do it sometimes on

[00:24:45] purpose. I will admit like, it's a little bit staged, but I do it because I want students to see

[00:24:50] that I've forgotten what I needed to say. And I'll just be like, hold on, I lost my train

[00:24:56] of thought here guys, like what are you talking about? And like, I used to be afraid

[00:25:01] of doing that because it was like, they're going to think I'm dumb and I'm not prepared.

[00:25:04] But then I was like, I don't really care what they think this is in service to them. Because

[00:25:07] if they see me doing this, they'll be okay with doing it themselves when they're standing

[00:25:12] in front of the class doing their presentation. Like, it's okay to say things like, hang on,

[00:25:17] I forgot what I was going to say next. Let me re rethink this for a second or give me a minute

[00:25:24] as I try to figure out what my next point was going to be. Or that's a really good

[00:25:28] question. I'm sorry, I actually don't know the answer to that. I'm going to have to get back to

[00:25:31] you. And I would even say that's an opportunity to engage like the other person, right? Because

[00:25:40] like you said with the, like you said with how you do it with your students,

[00:25:47] I think that's also like you kind of how you framed it as a question. It gives them

[00:25:51] a chance to be like, oh yeah, like this is what you were talking about. And then it helps

[00:25:55] you kind of organize your thoughts even quicker. And it engages them. So now they're more

[00:26:00] interested in talking with you and like what's next that you want to say? Because Anna also shows

[00:26:08] that they were paying attention, which I'm sure is helpful as a teacher.

[00:26:12] Absolutely. And it kind of I think it humanizes the person that's like speaking at the front

[00:26:17] of the room, right? Like whoever whether it's an educator or presenter, like when you're

[00:26:22] fully engaged with your audience, even if it's in a format that like where they're telling you

[00:26:27] what is expected of you, like that makes you seem like, okay, this person is approachable.

[00:26:33] Like and then you're more inclined to pay attention when someone is speaking anyway,

[00:26:37] because you feel like it's because it's I think when it comes to communication,

[00:26:41] it's like 75% about how you're saying it. And 25% is the what what are you actually saying?

[00:26:48] Right? Like, I could be making all kinds of stuff up with you. But if I'm doing it in a way

[00:26:54] that's approachable and relatable, and a little bit of humor here and there,

[00:26:58] you're going to engage with me. Maybe it won't make sense later. But in that

[00:27:03] you're into it, right? Because it's like about how I'm talking to you and how I feel

[00:27:08] like I'm communicating that it's important for me to engage with you, like through eye contact,

[00:27:13] through vocal variety, through the pacing of my speech and how quickly or rapidly the words are

[00:27:19] coming out. All of these things play a role in how you are thinking she knows what she's

[00:27:24] talking about. Or I want to listen to what she has to say. It's less about what I'm actually

[00:27:29] saying. Yeah, it's it's almost like there's a science behind it, right? And there's certain

[00:27:38] things that you have to do. I remember watching actually a video a while back and it was I mean,

[00:27:45] it was just typical sales stuff. And I was like, All right, a lot of it was whatever. There's

[00:27:51] actually three parts that I kind of went in stood out to me. And it was 50 is like 60%

[00:27:59] is what like your body language and another percent is like your tone of voice.

[00:28:04] Like you said, pacing, all that stuff. It's like 5% is actually what it is you're saying. It's like,

[00:28:10] OK, this is like this is great. But it's the stuff that you do to engage other people.

[00:28:18] Absolutely. Yeah, I forget the name of the guy, but there's actually a TED talk and

[00:28:23] the title of the TED talk is How to Sound Smart in your TED talk. And the guy that's

[00:28:30] delivering it, he has no content. He's literally just making stuff up and saying random things.

[00:28:36] At one point, he's even talking in gibberish. But you can't stop watching it because of the way

[00:28:41] that he's delivering it. He's funny. He seems charming. He seems like somebody you would

[00:28:46] become friends with relatively easily because he's just kind of this like goofy character.

[00:28:51] And and it just is further proof of this idea that like you could literally say whatever

[00:28:57] it is that pops into your brain. But how you're saying it is what's going to actually

[00:29:01] connect you to another person. And that's why we need to communicate, right? It's all about

[00:29:06] connection. And like with public speaking, audience connection is 100% dependent on the way

[00:29:12] that you're speaking to the audience. Right. Like are you with them? Are you moving around?

[00:29:17] Do you like the people that are robotic, rigid, not moving and have the content memorized,

[00:29:24] they may have all of their facts and research based evidence. But it's like listening to a

[00:29:28] robot. Nobody's engaged. No one's paying attention. And if you ask them follow up questions,

[00:29:35] I don't know. Yeah, they're kind of, you know, that kind of goes. I mean, I don't want

[00:29:42] to like but like, it goes to the kind of the tone of voice, right? It's like, yeah.

[00:29:47] If you're just saying the same, like kind of that monotone, right, they say,

[00:29:52] yeah, that you want to avoid kind of the monotone, you want to, you know, volume,

[00:29:59] I've heard is important, right? You want to go intense volume and then kind of quiet

[00:30:04] things like that. I don't know if that's legit, but

[00:30:09] because you know how sometimes if you'll you're listening to someone talk,

[00:30:13] you'll know just based off of their volume and pitch when a certain word or phrase has

[00:30:19] more emphasis on it, because they'll be like louder at that point. Like you have to do this,

[00:30:25] right? So that's compelling you there's some sort of action that they really want you to take

[00:30:29] like their voice just as louder with certain parts that has this like we have this internal

[00:30:34] response when we hear people put emphasis on certain words, even if we filtered out

[00:30:39] everything they said before that point, that part of that conversation is going to stay with you

[00:30:43] because of the way that it was said, whether it was something was louder or they had like

[00:30:48] clap their hands or they, you know, slammed the table or something depending on what the

[00:30:52] conversation is about. But it's like emphasis on certain words is highly dependent on tone,

[00:30:57] volume, pitch and rate. And it is verbal but at the same time non-verbally kind of communicates

[00:31:03] importance on a certain point. And it gets your attention even if you were like completely

[00:31:08] tuned out before then you're like, oh wait now this is important. I know it's important

[00:31:12] because of the way that it was said not because of the content itself. The content

[00:31:16] processing that content obviously that has its place but that comes later once you're actually

[00:31:20] paying attention. But that's how you get someone to pay attention, right? Like that vocal. The

[00:31:26] monotone speeches are a nightmare. The monotone speeches are the ones where all they care about

[00:31:33] is like I need to say all of these things because they're just focusing on this is

[00:31:39] what's going to make sense and so that's all that's important is that I make sense.

[00:31:43] And that's the problem because that's not the number one thing that you need to do when you're

[00:31:47] communicating. Every time you're opening your mouth, the number one thing you need to do is

[00:31:51] connect. You need to connect with one other person whether it makes sense or not that's

[00:31:56] to be determined later because if you and I are connecting and we're having a conversation,

[00:32:00] if I say something that doesn't make sense, you now feel comfortable asking me for

[00:32:05] clarification, right? Yeah. And that's connection. That's how we actually learn.

[00:32:11] But if I'm just focused on I have these facts, I'm going to say them in a robotic monotone manner.

[00:32:16] I might know what I'm talking about but 30 seconds into it you'll be like yeah I don't

[00:32:21] care about this. Yeah. It's the delivery because even if the information is good,

[00:32:30] like you said that stuff you're sharing is good again drives your point home. It's

[00:32:35] the delivery of that information that matters because especially in today, I mean

[00:32:42] that's why social media and all YouTube, all those platforms have blown up because

[00:32:50] it's an opportunity to engage with someone on the other side of the screen and if you're

[00:32:54] not like doing things that aren't engaging or gets their attention or whatever it may be,

[00:33:03] the information that you're sharing, they could care less even if it's really really good stuff.

[00:33:08] Yeah, it's about how. It's about the how that matters. But unfortunately social media has also

[00:33:14] created such a difficult dynamic around communication because like these teenagers

[00:33:21] are you know obviously there's so much data to back up that they are all addicted to it

[00:33:25] right? But this very curated online persona is what they're comparing themselves to and so

[00:33:33] if they feel even a little bit less than when they communicate, now it's even more emboldened

[00:33:39] by like I don't sound like her, I can't talk like her, I can't engage people like her or him

[00:33:44] or whoever right? And so it puts this false narrative in our minds that like I'm not

[00:33:50] going to be that engaging. I can't speak to people in this way right? Or the other thing

[00:33:56] that's happening is people feel very empowered and emboldened and confident behind a screen

[00:34:02] completely disappears in front of a person. Yes, I'm definitely one of those I would say.

[00:34:10] I fall into some of those categories. And like you know it's human nature there's sometimes

[00:34:16] we're all on and sometimes you're having an off day and but when you're online you're always

[00:34:22] on right? And so that also builds this false narrative and expectation especially with young

[00:34:27] people I think that they need to always be engaging and if they're not they don't belong

[00:34:32] or they shouldn't speak or they're not capable and that negative self-talk starts right there

[00:34:35] because they're coming at it from this idea of like comparison which is the thief of all joy

[00:34:41] and that's what I feel like social media is doing for everyone right? But it's like

[00:34:46] it's curated and it's you don't know how many times they've recorded that you don't know how

[00:34:50] many times they've messed up right? Like that's the most polished version of it but

[00:34:55] that doesn't mean that they're always polished every time they open their mouth and that nor

[00:34:59] should that be the expectation but I think that social media is definitely putting a huge

[00:35:05] amount of anxiety on people when it comes to their communication skills because it's this

[00:35:10] expectation of like in full engagement all the time which is impossible to achieve and

[00:35:17] then there's also like the added element of anxiety of having a live audience or live

[00:35:23] conversations rather than a recorded one and because everybody is a star behind a camera.

[00:35:29] Yeah right no it's true. It's definitely part of the problem I think unfortunately like I mean

[00:35:36] I'm not I don't want to knock social media I understand that it has its advantages in a lot

[00:35:40] of ways right? Audience engagement like you were talking about like there's definitely we can assess

[00:35:46] who we want to listen to and who we want to follow because of their online presence

[00:35:50] and people can be super captivating but then the other side of it especially in the classroom

[00:35:55] like I see the other side of it. It's really hard to tell students that you know it's

[00:36:01] they're not like we're not looking for influencer level communication like

[00:36:07] that's not the go-to that's not the goal.

[00:36:09] Yeah it almost affects development right like of that communication and I would even say like

[00:36:17] even the people that may like yeah to your point they're throwing on their best version

[00:36:22] as well also some of the people that are out there took them years to learn how to

[00:36:30] communicate that way in the first place and so like you said I'm guilty of it too right?

[00:36:36] And so like you said I'm guilty of it too right? You compare yourself to that person you're like

[00:36:41] man I want to be like that right be that good but then you don't see the years and years of

[00:36:46] work that they put into getting that good. Right and I think like with communication skills

[00:36:54] it takes a lot to even get your mind wrapped around the idea of like it is actually a

[00:37:00] learned skill because you've been doing it since you were born right and so when you've

[00:37:04] been doing something since the day you were born you're gonna assume you're doing it right,

[00:37:09] you're doing it well it's been working out so smart.

[00:37:14] It's something we actually do need to like actually like pay attention to and work on and

[00:37:19] willfully like try to improve and it's interesting because like you know at the

[00:37:24] university there's people there's students that are coming from all over the world

[00:37:28] and so I've seen in some high schools now they do require communication courses

[00:37:33] some colleges like mine they do require like my course is a graduation requirement regardless

[00:37:39] of your major because it is a skill that everyone needs to have but I feel like these

[00:37:44] are classes that like I think only some high schools are doing it but I think it needs to

[00:37:49] be at the elementary school level, middle school, high school, college and it needs

[00:37:54] to be a part of professional development. It needs to be a lifelong plan to like improve

[00:37:59] because you're always going to be doing it. Are you aware of how well you're doing it?

[00:38:03] Are you aware of where you need to grow? It's true there's no deliberate right practice which

[00:38:10] I think that's yeah I've found that's actually pretty helpful that when you actually turn

[00:38:15] your mind on to be like all right I'm gonna deliberately practice this yeah and then it

[00:38:20] slowly like kind of meshes into one. I don't know if that makes sense but it does

[00:38:26] because like you it's just this it's a process it's not something that you like whether it's

[00:38:30] public speaking or interpersonal communication whatever the type is it's a process and so if

[00:38:36] like at the elementary school level if we start working on like having kids just understand

[00:38:42] better listening skills because kids don't listen right they need to be taught how to listen

[00:38:47] they need to be taught how to pay attention and for because like there's research that shows

[00:38:52] if you're actually participating in active listening your body's physical reaction to it

[00:38:57] is that similar to a workout where your heart rate will increase you may even may even perspire

[00:39:04] your entire body is fully engaged when you're actively paying attention to someone.

[00:39:08] I didn't know that that's fascinating because you're it's not just about your mind all of

[00:39:14] your senses are fully engaged when you're participating in active listening right and so

[00:39:19] and it's one of those things that you can totally fake and the other person thinks you're doing it

[00:39:23] because you're making eye contact but in reality you're thinking about what you're going to eat

[00:39:26] for lunch later. Yeah it's a problem because like if kids aren't taught at a young age how

[00:39:37] to actively listen then why do we as adults get annoyed when they're not doing it when

[00:39:43] they're teenagers were they taught how to do it maybe maybe right like and there's a difference

[00:39:50] between like the physiological element of being able to hear you versus listening to understand

[00:39:56] you most people are listening to respond to you which is also not enough listening it's not

[00:40:03] right and so listening is a huge element of communication that gets completely overlooked

[00:40:09] and then you know and it's it's to a student's detriment because by the time you are in college

[00:40:15] you're a full-time university student you're listening 80 percent of your day but you were

[00:40:20] never actually taught how to do it in an effective manner you know and that matters

[00:40:26] like I have I have a daughter who is in sixth grade and in fifth grade they learned

[00:40:32] how to take notes properly and how to organize their notes and so that that facilitated

[00:40:38] better learning listening skills because she had to she had like a whole plan of how she needed

[00:40:43] to take these notes what were the main ideas what are questions or what are follow-up things

[00:40:48] she needs to research so she was listening for specific pieces of information that made her more

[00:40:54] engaged and that made her a better learner in the long run but it wasn't until fifth grade

[00:41:00] even came up in the full setting right yeah I didn't even think about that too right when you're

[00:41:06] by the time you get to that college level where it is mostly listening you haven't even developed

[00:41:09] that skill exactly you're kind of screwed at the college level then you're listening to

[00:41:17] either respond or to regurgitate because you're going to be tested on that later

[00:41:22] it's a very different thing to listen to someone to actually truly understand and absorb

[00:41:26] and retain information and they're only doing that in the classes that they're enjoying like

[00:41:32] but then it's selective listening it's not you know that's not what we're going for if you're

[00:41:38] 80 percent of your day is listening but 20 percent of it is when you want to listen

[00:41:43] then you know it's a disservice to the student and the educator interesting that that's

[00:41:48] fascinating I didn't know that it opened my mind to whole new so thank you thank you

[00:41:54] thank you for that so I hate to wrap this up I want to be respectful of your time but

[00:42:00] if people want to find you reach out to you take your class whatever it may be

[00:42:05] what's the best way that they can do all that if you could google my name on my university

[00:42:11] page will show up and I'm associated with University of Maryland as a lecturer there

[00:42:15] I also actually do communication coaching one-on-one with people to help and that

[00:42:20] varies from like teenagers to adults so google is probably your best bet that I'm

[00:42:25] in the process of getting a website up and running but it's not quite there yet

[00:42:29] so that might and I can give you my email address if people reach out to you

[00:42:32] awesome well thank you Sabine for coming on today and sharing your knowledge it's

[00:42:37] I learned a lot oh I'm so glad thank you so much for this opportunity it means a lot to me

[00:42:42] to have this this dialogue with someone that's like doing such great work the intelligent

[00:42:47] conversations that you're having are a service to like a worldwide community and it was an honor

[00:42:53] thank you so much well thank you all right everyone as you can tell that is Sabine Sheikh

[00:42:57] she's a very intelligent person has great things to share I challenge you guys if anything

[00:43:02] spoke to you or if you're interested in receiving coaching from her to reach out to her I'm sure

[00:43:07] she would be glad to help you stay tuned till next week we have a great guest lined

[00:43:11] up for you guys see you guys next week and let's get after it hey everyone if you liked

[00:43:18] this episode and would like to hear more be sure to hit that subscribe or follow button

[00:43:23] we release a new episode every Wednesday for you guys to listen to thank you guys so much

[00:43:28] for the support that you give we could not have done this without you guys if you would

[00:43:32] like to be a potential guest on the show check out intelligentconvos.com and fill out the form

[00:43:38] there thank you guys again and let's get after it